Trav-
I know your “love” for all things WC but a couple quick points, RE: your news letter;
1. Chi Sau is NOT a fighting technique, it is simply a training tool and a ‘game’ to develop reflexes, among other attributes in CS training, which it DOES and does VERY well. You would NEVER use this in a fight.
2. Chain punching/straight blasting/circle punching is a TRANSITIONAL technique. No, ya don’t go chasing some with it, it is a target of opportunity tech and is rarely used for more than a few strikes to get an opponent to cover up while you work on something else.
Again, I know your feelings on WC and not trying to change any minds, just clarifying so e things. BTW, in recent years, say the past 10-15, BJJ and WC people have been doing seminars together because, at the end of the day, WC is nothing more than stand-up grappling.
1a. Why train a MOVEMENT that doesn’t actually work? You could strike someone with a pool noodle and execute slip techniques in response, and you have a fun, game-like drill that actually builds a functional motor skill. In other words, drill or no drill, it should be able to build something into your muscle memory that is actually usable / functional.
1b. Additionally, ask yourself the following question,”Could I be doing something better with my time?” For example, would I have a more functional fighting style if I spent all of that Chi Sao time just jabbing a heavy bag? The answer is a resounding ‘yes’. Building a jab (or any real punch) is a better use of one’s time.
2. If circle punching was an effectual way to punch, why aren’t boxers using it when they try to ‘get people to cover up’? The truth is that this mechanic leads to unnecessary head exposure, and it just doesn’t do any damage in comparison to a traditional punch. If you’re going to get people to cover up, there are better ways to do it!
Additional paragraph: I heard of this ‘stand up grappling’ thing when it was called Judo or Wrestling and actually worked 😉
Circle punch training looks very much like speed bag training to me, from the perspective of someone who has done neither and is just going by how they appear visually. Is it significantly different? Is speed bag training also silly? Genuine question!
I once fixed a sticking bedroom door with this technique. Actually, the door jamb didn’t move, it stayed in place. Instead, the entire house moved 1/4″ and then the door worked perfectly.
Long time wing chun practitioner here. Admittedly, formal wc isn’t a great choice in today’s culture improvised, ad hoc, and trained street defense mma.
Perhaps we should recognize that those videos of circle punching are deceptive because they’re significantly sped up (post production editing) to an unachievable speed
I incorporate a few WC techniques in my Krav Maga classes, but not chain punching – for exactly the reasons you cited. Some WC techniques, such as deflecting a violent shove and using his momentum to drop and control the aggressor, are easy to learn and use and actually effective.
Three basic responses to any striking attack. 1) dodge/duck/slip 2) Block 3) parry
If I am in striking range of my opponent, he can also counter/ strike. Wing chung is about using the Parry. harder to do then #1 and #2. However if you learn it? you catch the strike and send it away from its target, using less energy than #1 and #2.
what I learned in TKD is a bit more brutal, and not suitable for sport martial arts. The block is modified into a strike against the arms and legs. In effect, taking their weapons away. Not a nice thing to do to your training partner. So a difficult thing to practice.
The “idea” and “The practical application” of both Chain punches and Chi Sau are
Not to take into straight forward combat situations as the one and only thing to do. And one does no generally do such a technique whilst stationary. The idea is to push forward and do so with a number of different attachs. usually 3-5 chain punches at most – It’s not a damn movie. Nobody is going to chain 10-20 punches unless it is a movie.
I trust you knew that and are only looking to engage comments, (congrats – Mission accomplished)
Chi Sau is about sensitivity training for close contact amongst other things. And getting used to the idea of having someone right up against you. Wing Chun is not designed for hit and run, hit and run, hit and run like boxing. It’s primary assault rationale is get in close and shut down fast at a distance that most are truly uncomfortable at. Chaining is one small aspect of many, many punches used by W.C. (especially Applied W.C.) who use “Arrow” punches as well as a range of other punches, including hooks, upper cuts, low punches, strikes to the back of the head, the liver, heart region, kicks to the knee, the striking continues well after the enemy is down – Why would you stop ? (unless cameras are rolling / legal issues). There is no ref to pull you apart and telling to start again or it’s a knock out or a T.K.O.
W.C. is not a sport, it never has been, it doesn’t have tournaments, there is not Point scoring – It’s about fucking people up as soon as is possible in the fastest possible way using whatever means you can… No referee, no rules. As you say yourself. Boxing is a Punching technique of fighting. W.C. is not, W.C. will kick, head butt, bite, kick the groan, strike the throat and jab the eyes etc. etc.
As soon as you impose rules in a fighting situation it is no longer Wing Chun. As soon as you say, you cannot kick to the knee cap and push that thing backwards with all your weight, it is no longer wing chun, as soon as you put M.M.A or 12-14-16-18oz gloves on it is no longer wing chun in a fighting situation. Before you slam things, it may be best to talk to someone high up in the system you are wanting to know about, Actually a few , to make sure you are not getting one opinion, and then base your comments on a better understanding of what the system is actually about, not some 30 sec Chi sau reel from Instagram. I love boxing, and a great boxer with a good powerful hit may well fuck up the average W.C.er. But a great W.C.er should be able to trash a knee, get a few fingers into a eye socket and help make a boxer sing a octave higher with a snap kick or two, or more to the nuts before he goes down. All things are not allowed in the ring. It’s no good comparing apples and oranges.
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Trav-
I know your “love” for all things WC but a couple quick points, RE: your news letter;
1. Chi Sau is NOT a fighting technique, it is simply a training tool and a ‘game’ to develop reflexes, among other attributes in CS training, which it DOES and does VERY well. You would NEVER use this in a fight.
2. Chain punching/straight blasting/circle punching is a TRANSITIONAL technique. No, ya don’t go chasing some with it, it is a target of opportunity tech and is rarely used for more than a few strikes to get an opponent to cover up while you work on something else.
Again, I know your feelings on WC and not trying to change any minds, just clarifying so e things. BTW, in recent years, say the past 10-15, BJJ and WC people have been doing seminars together because, at the end of the day, WC is nothing more than stand-up grappling.
Respect the shi’ite out ya, Trav. 😎
Hey mang!
In response to your points:
1a. Why train a MOVEMENT that doesn’t actually work? You could strike someone with a pool noodle and execute slip techniques in response, and you have a fun, game-like drill that actually builds a functional motor skill. In other words, drill or no drill, it should be able to build something into your muscle memory that is actually usable / functional.
1b. Additionally, ask yourself the following question,”Could I be doing something better with my time?” For example, would I have a more functional fighting style if I spent all of that Chi Sao time just jabbing a heavy bag? The answer is a resounding ‘yes’. Building a jab (or any real punch) is a better use of one’s time.
2. If circle punching was an effectual way to punch, why aren’t boxers using it when they try to ‘get people to cover up’? The truth is that this mechanic leads to unnecessary head exposure, and it just doesn’t do any damage in comparison to a traditional punch. If you’re going to get people to cover up, there are better ways to do it!
Additional paragraph: I heard of this ‘stand up grappling’ thing when it was called Judo or Wrestling and actually worked 😉
Love you too buddy.
Circle punch training looks very much like speed bag training to me, from the perspective of someone who has done neither and is just going by how they appear visually. Is it significantly different? Is speed bag training also silly? Genuine question!
Speed bag training (when done correctly) teaches you to bring your hand back to a position that guards your face!
It’s like drumming. If you listen instead of watch, there is a beat you hear that you can probably match with smaller “circles”.
I once fixed a sticking bedroom door with this technique. Actually, the door jamb didn’t move, it stayed in place. Instead, the entire house moved 1/4″ and then the door worked perfectly.
Brilliant!
Long time wing chun practitioner here. Admittedly, formal wc isn’t a great choice in today’s culture improvised, ad hoc, and trained street defense mma.
Perhaps we should recognize that those videos of circle punching are deceptive because they’re significantly sped up (post production editing) to an unachievable speed
I heavily implied the ‘speed up’ in my newsletter verbiage 😉
I incorporate a few WC techniques in my Krav Maga classes, but not chain punching – for exactly the reasons you cited. Some WC techniques, such as deflecting a violent shove and using his momentum to drop and control the aggressor, are easy to learn and use and actually effective.
good shit
Three basic responses to any striking attack. 1) dodge/duck/slip 2) Block 3) parry
If I am in striking range of my opponent, he can also counter/ strike. Wing chung is about using the Parry. harder to do then #1 and #2. However if you learn it? you catch the strike and send it away from its target, using less energy than #1 and #2.
what I learned in TKD is a bit more brutal, and not suitable for sport martial arts. The block is modified into a strike against the arms and legs. In effect, taking their weapons away. Not a nice thing to do to your training partner. So a difficult thing to practice.
G’day Trav,
The “idea” and “The practical application” of both Chain punches and Chi Sau are
Not to take into straight forward combat situations as the one and only thing to do. And one does no generally do such a technique whilst stationary. The idea is to push forward and do so with a number of different attachs. usually 3-5 chain punches at most – It’s not a damn movie. Nobody is going to chain 10-20 punches unless it is a movie.
I trust you knew that and are only looking to engage comments, (congrats – Mission accomplished)
Chi Sau is about sensitivity training for close contact amongst other things. And getting used to the idea of having someone right up against you. Wing Chun is not designed for hit and run, hit and run, hit and run like boxing. It’s primary assault rationale is get in close and shut down fast at a distance that most are truly uncomfortable at. Chaining is one small aspect of many, many punches used by W.C. (especially Applied W.C.) who use “Arrow” punches as well as a range of other punches, including hooks, upper cuts, low punches, strikes to the back of the head, the liver, heart region, kicks to the knee, the striking continues well after the enemy is down – Why would you stop ? (unless cameras are rolling / legal issues). There is no ref to pull you apart and telling to start again or it’s a knock out or a T.K.O.
W.C. is not a sport, it never has been, it doesn’t have tournaments, there is not Point scoring – It’s about fucking people up as soon as is possible in the fastest possible way using whatever means you can… No referee, no rules. As you say yourself. Boxing is a Punching technique of fighting. W.C. is not, W.C. will kick, head butt, bite, kick the groan, strike the throat and jab the eyes etc. etc.
As soon as you impose rules in a fighting situation it is no longer Wing Chun. As soon as you say, you cannot kick to the knee cap and push that thing backwards with all your weight, it is no longer wing chun, as soon as you put M.M.A or 12-14-16-18oz gloves on it is no longer wing chun in a fighting situation. Before you slam things, it may be best to talk to someone high up in the system you are wanting to know about, Actually a few , to make sure you are not getting one opinion, and then base your comments on a better understanding of what the system is actually about, not some 30 sec Chi sau reel from Instagram. I love boxing, and a great boxer with a good powerful hit may well fuck up the average W.C.er. But a great W.C.er should be able to trash a knee, get a few fingers into a eye socket and help make a boxer sing a octave higher with a snap kick or two, or more to the nuts before he goes down. All things are not allowed in the ring. It’s no good comparing apples and oranges.